True Elders

As a matter of information. Eph 2:20 gives the structure of God; Yeshua is the corner stone at the bottom of the building with the apostles and prophets being the foundation, again at the bottom. The rest of the "family of God" above them. This probably refers more to the general idea of the family of God throughout the ages and not the individual assemblies.

Now the Heb 13 passage is the ONE passage that is used as a justification for men to rule over other men. I've searched the Gospels and have not been able to find any passage in which Yeshua said that men were to rule men but instead to love and serve each other. He is our only King and Shepherd. There are two words translated submit in the NT, one literally means to be a slave of the other means to defer to. The first is used in the text of wives submit to your husbands and in the text to submit yourselves one to another referring to all believers including leadership. This indicates an equality in position as does the passage that says the Yeshua is the head of every man and the Hebrews and Peter passages that indicate every believer is a priest with Yeshua as the high priest. Therefore, there is no structure that places one man over another.

The word translated in Hebrews 13 as submit actually means defer to, or make way for (i.e. respect) those who lead. The Hebrews 13 passage can be understood in the context of the OT. In the times before Yeshua there were elders at the gates of every city. These elders were the granddads of the families in the city. The people of the city knew them because they were their grandfather. These granddads knew everyone in the city and everyone in the neighboring country so their role was to watch over those who came into the city to identify anyone who was an enemy or might be up to no good. They also were there in case someone needed advice or directions because they had experience. This is the Biblical concept of elders (i.e. leadership), old men with experience who watch over the families as they assemble looking for enemies in the midst and assisting as needed. They were not priests or rulers but servants of their children.

The other indication of God's structure for men is that of the New Jerusalem, a 1500 mile cube with 12 stones for the foundation representing the 12 tribes. In the pyramid structure the base supports the one on top who rules over those beneath and who receives all the support and benefits flowing from the base upward. The authority in this structure dissipates as you go down the structure. In the family structure each family is supported by the Lord from beneath and everyone is the servant of each other with equal authority and position given from Yeshua. God has no grandsons. However, additional respect and love is given to the granddads who watch over the group.

There is no NT or OT indication that there is to be a "pastor" (actually elders in the Greek) that is to rule the elders who are to rule the deacons who rule the people. This is the sin of the Nicolatians, the clergy conquering the laity. The Greek for Nicolatians is Nike and Laitos which literally means conquer the common people.

Statement:

''In the Old Testament, God's authority was exercised primarily by a theocratic model, first with Moses and then through the King as God's representative (and this authority was hierarchical and essentially (autocratic) the prophets being the main form of 'checks and balances' on the Kings. ''

Rebuttal:

Based on what I've been shown this requires some analysis to determine what God actually wanted here.

First of All Moses was a prophet, not a king nor a priest. His job was simple to take Israel from Egypt and deliver them to Sinai. Yahweh wanted Moses to step out of the way so that He could make Israel a nation of priests Exodus 19:6. Moses was to retire once he delivered Israel to Sinai; Exodus 3:12 And he said, ''Certainly I will be with thee; and this shall be a token unto thee, that I have sent thee: When thou hast brought forth the people out of Egypt, ye shall serve God upon this mountain. ''

In other words He wanted His people to know Him personally and have access to Him personally not through a prophet nor through another priest. Moses was supposed to spend the rest of his live serving the Lord at Sinai.

HOWEVER, THEY CHOSE MOSES TO ACT AS A PRIEST rather than having God speak to them directly and personally, Exodus 20:18-19. This WAS NOT Yahweh's will. So Yahweh gave them what they wanted Exodus 20:22, He went back to speaking through Moses.

The Kings came about in the same way, THE PEOPLE WANTED A KING LIKE THE OTHER NATIONS and Yahweh gave into their desires. IT WAS NOT HIS WILL BUT THEIRS. In Isaiah 28: 7-13 it indicates that when someone wants to operate their own way the Lord will yield and make it His Word to them, thus what was not God's will becomes God's law to them!

Now concerning the hierarchy in Israel, this came straight from a pagan, Midianite priest, Moses' father-in-law. Exodus 18.13-27. The problem here is that Moses listened to his father-in-law instead of inquiring of the Lord. Exodus 18:24. This group of men became the Sanhedrin who crucified Yeshua centuries later. This was Lucifer's imposition of the hierarchical structure upon Israel which had it's origins in Babylon. God's intentions were for ALL of Israel to be on equal footing as priests, but once they rejected God's will them Yahweh gave them a priesthood. This is our biggest problem that IF WE REJECT YAHWEH"S WILL HE WILL GIVE US WHAT WE WANT!

Statement:

''Elements of the Old Testament style (still a biblical one) are reflected in Jesus' words to His followers in Matthew 23:2-3, instructing them to obey the teachings of the Pharisees who had authority over them because they sat in the seat of Moses; but not to imitate their hypocritical lives. ''

Rebuttal:

The Matthew 23 comment is because Yeshua had not completed His task, setting the captives (Israel) free from their self chosen jail; the hierarchy of priests and kings.

Yahweh of course brought us Yeshua to restore us to the every member priesthood with Yeshua as the High Priest (a nation of priests, Hebrews, Peter). The Church got the hierarchy again compliments of Constantine 320 AD and have been imprisoned by it ever since. We are just now again struggling to regain our position as priests, returning to the NT position. We are not looking to return to the NT model as much as the NT spiritual position of priests and the new Adams.

Statement:

"Another way in which the 'episkopos' 'sees over' is by looking at the group as a whole to understand how it all fits together, and how it figures into the larger picture of the church. Just as a construction supervisor refers to the blue-prints, or a symphony conductor to the full score, so the Christian overseer seeks an overview of the corporate structure and function."

Rebuttal:

This presumes that there is to be a corporate structure. There is to not be. The oversight is to take place primarily spiritually not merely physically. The elders are to do as Yeshua did..."I only do what I see my Father do". They, because of their spiritual sensitivity and experience, are to watch what Yahweh is doing in the midst of His priests and redirect the assembly or person if they've missed the Lord's direction. The assembly is to be lead by the Spirit when they assemble, but sometimes miss His direction. The elders are to help out as needed because they can literally see and hear God better that anyone else.

They are not to be like the Jews (John 5:16-40) They could not see nor hear the Father (John 5:37-39). The Logos of God did not dwell (live) in them because they did not literally walk spiritually with the Logos, since they could not see nor hear Him spiritually! (Logos here is not the scripture!)

Leadership are not to replace the High Priest but to walk almost the other priests as older, more experienced, more serving and more loving priests.

I'd like to respond to the spiritual verses physical leadership. However, before I go there I'd like to comment on the leadership thing. It always amazes me how the "church" is so interested in leadership. Yeshua is our example (not Paul). Yeshua spent a lot of time discussing His Father and His Father's kingdom and very little time discussing leadership, about a handful of times actually. Why is this?

I believe it goes back to the Exodus 20 curse if you will and the fact no man can reveal anything supernatural to another man. Yahweh has not empowered man to "turn on the switch" for another man to see Yeshua's spiritual Kingdom. All man can do is point to it. We cannot teach Yeshua, all we can do is teach about Him. Yeshua is the one who reveals the Father and His Kingdom. This is why men cannot lead spiritually but only the Holy Spirit leads who reveals the Son and the Father. The best men can do is set the stage as directed by the Holy Spirit and trust the Holy Spirit to lead all of the priests to the High Priest so He can take them where He wants to.

This probably needs some explanation. Man only perceives the physical, not the spiritual until he is born of the Spirit and the Spirit opens his five spiritual senses. At this point he is able to see, hear, feel, taste and smell in the spiritual realm, that is the Kingdom of God. It takes a fair amount of time and revelation for the individual to learn to interpret what they are sensing in the realm of the Kingdom. Once they have learned, then they can begin to walk in the Spirit and be lead by the Spirit. This of course is where Yeshua was. He could see, hear, touch, taste and smell His father so He had been taught to do only what He saw His Father do. He did not learn this from man's teaching or leading but from His father through the Holy Spirit.

Most men can only perceive the works of the Father and not the Father of the works. That is, they focus on the physical works and can lead in the physical realm only. The best way to see this is by looking at the Ten Commandments. These Laws were physical in nature, do and do not do, and men were given the authority and command to judge other men by these dos and don'ts. Yeshua came along and added the spiritual dimension to the actions. The actions of men come from their spirit and soul not just their body and mind. Only God can judge the actions and intents of the spirit. This has not been given to man EXCEPT in the times when the Holy Spirit reveals the intentions of a man's spirit, such as Peter with Anias and Sapphira.

A leader, who cannot see and hear into the spiritual realm is blind (Ladocian) and at best, attempts to determine God's leading by observing the physical results. At worst they attempt to bring about the physical works of God by demanding conformity to a physical standard of actions (submit, read the Bible, tithe, pray, fast, attend, obey etc) unable to perceive what Father is actually doing with the individual or group at the time. This is NOT the work of a true elder (leader)! A true elder has come to the point is his relationship with Father where he not only sees, hears, touches, smells and tastes Father and His realm but he understands what he is perceiving and knows how it will manifest in the physical realm. This is what the Lord's prayer is about; Thy Kingdom come (spiritual and physical) thy will be done on earth (physical) as it is done in Heaven (Spiritual). We must see into Heaven, God's realm to participate in bring His will to earth and seeing it fulfilled in the physical realm. This is the mature spiritual man's walk, the restored Adams. Instead we have for the most part men operating in the physical trying to get God to cross over to do something physical by getting everyone they are leading to line up physically hoping that somehow they will get it right so God will move. The blind leading the blind. Looking at the physical realm attempting to get a physical response from God using the physical senses is the way most of mankind operated and is simply Worldliness.

Concerning the 1 Corinthians 13:12 passage, when we look into the spiritual realm, it is dim like Paul says, not crystal clear as on a bright sunny day. There is much to see but sometimes you must look intently and ask for revelation to make out the details.

Statement:

"A true leader is one called by God. The degree upon which the spiritual realm is open to him/her is entirely secondary."

Rebuttal:

I agree that this is true for the calling but not for the proper function. In fact I don't think that a leader can truly operate correctly without at least seeing and hearing into the spiritual realm. A true leader has ONE purpose; to do everything he can to assist anyone less mature or experienced to know Yahweh intimately. Since Yahweh is spirit this must be done by using your spirit, there is no formula. The calling does not make a leader but when God has trained and sifted those called and chooses them, then you have a true leader. Many are called but few are chosen (by God).

This all has to do with the Works of God. We have developed the false notion that if we do the works of God then we have pleased Him. This is a salvation by works approach. We must be lead by the spirit to receive faith to do the works of God. This comes from knowing the God of the works. This is summarized by the passage: "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word (rhema) of God". Rhema is the spoken word of God. So what this passage says is that in our conversations with Father, He speaks a particular work He wants us to perform. When we HEAR that word then Faith to carryout that work comes with it. We then take that faith and perform the work when the Holy Spirit directs us to. Anything less is simple a dead or fleshly work, devoid of the Spirit.

Living works comes out of our intimacy with Father. We thus avoid the "did we not cast out demons...be away from me you evil doers because I know you not" problem. As we behold the Father (spiritually) in intimacy we become like Father and He will then trust us to assist others to know Him. This is His primary desire to know and be known. The best illustration of this is Isaiah; he "saw the Lord and He was high and lifted up..." then the Lord turned to Him and sent him to Israel. What was Isaiah doing in heaven? He was spending time before the Lord in His presence! This was not a one time event but a lifestyle, just like Yeshua. Then one time as he stood before the Lord the Lord commissioned him to go to Israel and he did. Did he stop standing before the Lord? NO, NO, he often stood before the Lord and beheld Him. Isaiah's treasure was in Heaven; YAHWEH. He thus had no interest in the treasures of earth. This makes for good leadership material. Remember, we become like what we behold.

Ours is to assist believers to gain the freedom and tools they need and point them to Him and get out of the way.

Now the question of spiritual senses is simple. The scripture assumes that you have them and use them. Starting with Adam; he walked in the Garden with Yahweh. Adam saw, heard and touched Him (we can only infer that he also smelled and tasted spiritual things). Adam had equal access to both realms spiritual and physical. He probably didn't pay much attention to which realm he was interacting with. Enoch, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, all the major and minor prophets could see, hear and feel Him and His kingdom. The NT believers took seeing into His realm for granted. They saw Peter standing at the door after his supernatural release from prison and though it was Peter's spirit. They were surprised that it was him in the flesh not the other way around. They obviously were used to seeing someone's spirit. It has only been in the past couple hundred years since we've embraced secular materialism that we have lost the ability to use spiritual senses. This is not a nearly such a problem in third world countries. The scriptures do not teach us to use our physical senses, it's taken for granted. If we are blind or deaf then He has healing. This is what the verse speaking of the Ladiocian church in Revelations is talking about; literally spiritual blindness which He can heal.